The Wandering Peacemaker

An interview with Roger Plunk,
By Marie-Claire Wilson
published in Oracle 2000 magazine
volume 11, issue 6 and 8 (April and June of 2001)

You write about spirituality in diplomatic and political relationships. Is that really possible? Can you explain?
In my book, I write about my work as a "non-government" mediator in the political conflicts of Tibet, Kashmir, Burma and Afghanistan. Conflicts are times of change. As a mediator, I try to influence the direction of this change in a positive way. In doing this, I appeal to the moral and the spiritual side of people. I reach out to that spiritual side to strengthen it. On the individual level, this is how spirituality enters politics.

An example of this is my discussions with Chinese officials in Beijing. I drew, as much as possible, from their own traditions. I emphasized the political flexibility found in Taoism, and governing by education (verses force) found in Confucianism. This appealed to their spiritual side. With the (fundamentalist) Taliban in Afghanistan, I emphasized that Islam promotes the use of large councils to resolve disputes; and that Islam, by endorsing leaders that society loves, also endorses democratic forms of government. The energy that a person projects during discussions also has a spiritual dimension.

Politics does seem far removed from spirituality. Politics deals with power, and power corrupts. So, politics is often distinguished by power-struggles, and the absence of spirituality. But that is only the dark side of politics. Good politics, like good music and good art, is inspired. We have Hitler and Stalin. But we also have Gandhi and Mandela. Politics is a spiritual battlefield, because it deals with the on-going struggles of our moral nature. From this point of view, spirituality is inseparable form politics.

The Bhagavad Gita, The Legend of King Arthur, the Star Wars movies, and countless other stories, portray a spiritual struggle that expresses itself on the political level. In these stories we find the idealized guardian of society that combines the priest, politician and soldier in one personality. We have the samurai, the knights of the round table, and the jedi knights. Political tragedy comes from lack of spirituality, as in the story of Macbeth. The US presidency was fashioned after George Washington, who was a soldier, politician and Mason. The Dalai Lama is a monk and politician. He is also a soldier in his own way. He fights with love.

You have had the privilege and the honor to meet the Dalai Lama. Do you sincerely believe that he will ever see Tibet again before he makes his transition?
The Dalai Lama believes he will return to Tibet before he dies. I have no reason to doubt him. In fact, I hope to play some part in his return. I last worked on Tibet in 1996. Because of the interest my book has stirred, people have encouraged me to return to this work. I am establishing a non-profit organization (Peace Initiatives) to fund my work on Tibet and other projects like Afghanistan and Sri Lanka. The focus of the Tibet Initiative, as I call it, is to improve relations between the Dalai Lama and Beijing through indirect dialogue, leading eventually to the Dalai Lama's return to Tibet. In my discussions with Chinese officials in Beijing, I know they are interested in the Dalai Lama returning to Tibet. Beijing also has an interest in putting an end to the Tibet independence issue, reducing tensions in Tibet, and improving its image in the world community. The Dalai Lama's policy of "middle-way-approach" does not advocate independence as a solution for Tibet. It advocates cultural autonomy and the general welfare of the Tibetan people. You can see how the interests of Beijing and the interests of the Dalai Lama can compliment each other. This makes a strong basis for dialogue, and it is not difficult to see both Beijing and the Dalai Lama achieving their interests by working together. The strongest, most lasting agreements are those where the interests of both parties are served.

Do you believe that Tibet will ever be free?
Not in the sense of an independent Tibet. As I mentioned, the Dalai Lama's policy of middle-way-approach does not advocate independence. The Dalai Lama's focus is the welfare of the Tibetan people. Tibet independence is not a practical solution, and the international community does not support it. However, it is possible for Tibetan to enjoy more freedom than they have ever dreamed of while still being part of China. Today's example of this is Hong Kong, which is part of China, but enjoys considerable freedom. This type of freedom is possible for Tibet. The Dalai Lama has often said that Tibet would be better off economically if it remained part of China. Even of China allows for an independent Tibet sometime in the future, Tibetan may want to remain part of China.

You wrote that in you travels around the world, you nave had the opportunity to meet people of different religions. What spiritual lesson or gifts did this bring to you?
There are certain things I can look back and say, yes, that was a lesson. I was often over-committed to the projects I got involved in. It was a type of stubbornness. It was not professional to allow my work to overshadow my life. Also, I did not give the proper attention to the financial side of things. Which often got me into trouble. This was a lesson of balance in life, which I am still learning.

Spiritual lessons, unlike for example math lessons, are rarely fully learned. There is no end to the lesson of love, or the lesson of using your intuition, or the lesson of communion with God. Or even the lesson of balance I just mentioned. We are all life time students. Even masters are students.

It is always difficult to measure one's own spiritual development. The important thing is to have the desire to grow, and to keep growing. If the desire is there, the path will continue to unfold itself. In my book I tell the story of being initiated in a spiritual practice while living in the Himalayas. A transformation took place where I came to appreciate God as a vast inner beauty, which my teacher referred to as Mother Divine. I suppose that was a gift. I do feel very grateful for it. But it is difficult for me to point to this or something else and say, 'yes I have learned this lesson,' because that implies a completion. Spiritual lessons are really an ongoing endeavor.

One thing that is common to both spiritual development and resolving disputes, is listening. In resolving disputes, it is more important to listen than to talk. A mediator has to listen in order to understand why people think and feel the way they do. In spiritual development, it is also more important to listen than to talk. We listen to the silent voice inside, and to the play of life all around us. Growing sensitivity to what is inside and outside of us is vital for spiritual growth.

For the readers of this magazine who have not yet read your book, could you briefly talk about some of your many experiences from traveling the world?
I don't think traveling is for everyone, but I've enjoyed it. Perhaps the most striking thing is the realization that we really do live in a global village. National boundaries are very much an illusion. When I look into the eyes of a farmer high in the Himalayas, I see the same light that I see in the eyes of any other person. The same love in Afghanistan is also in Iowa. What divides us is not national, ethnic, or religious boundaries, but the fear, hate, prejudice and other dark elements of human nature. What unites us is the many forms of love. This is a simple observation, but it is fun to see face to face.

I often saw children in Asia with bare-feet, torn ragged clothes, and tangles dusty hair. But they would be playing, singing and laughing. Their eyes sparkled, they giggled and jumped about without any sense of how poor they were, or as in Afghanistan, how close the war was to them. Wherever I go, I would see little girls skipping down the road. Where does a little girl in a remote village learn how to skip? I doubt it is learned. It is probably as universal as laughter.

I talked to a lot of ambassadors, ministers, generals, and spiritual leaders. But I spent more time talking to farmers, shepherds, and others living at the bottom of the economic ladder. These people represent the grass roots of the culture, and I would talk to them while sitting on dirt floors, squatting in pastures or sitting in small tea stalls. I valued my time with these people because my work was primarily for their benefit. It reminded me of why I was there.

In your book, you talk about the connection between spirituality and government. Could you explain that?
This is related to the first question. Let me take a different approach. Separation of church and state prevents the federal government form establishing an official religion. This safeguards religious freedom. But it was never meant to separate spirituality from government. The Founding Fathers saw government as rooted in spirituality, without which, government would collapse. They saw all human rights as rooted in natural law, and natural law as rooted in God. For them, governments do not give rights. Governments recognize rights that are already given by God.

If the purpose of life is spiritual evolution (as most of us believe), then law and government must reflect this. From this point of view, the evolution of law and government reflects a collective process of self-discovery and spiritual awakening of society. The slow, painful evolution of human rights, and compassionate role of government, represent the spiritual side of American government: The establishment of basic civil rights, the abolition of slavery, labor rights (protecting us from economic exploitation), Franklin Roosevelt's "freedom from want," (establishing social safety nets), the civil rights era, and environmental rights. This process continues to refine itself, through the dynamics of social pressures, legislatures, and courts. We obviously have a long way to go.

America's highest destiny, I believe, is the promotion of human rights and democracy throughout the world. Not as the ugly American imposing himself. But as a brother helping other cultures grow towards shared goals.

Traveling around the world and getting to know different cultures and different religions, does this help us to make more progress spiritually? What are your recommendations?
I do not think exposure to different cultures and religious traditions broadens our awareness. We don't have to travel to experience this. But we do have to be open to it. It gives us an appreciation of the great variety of human thought and religious experience. These differences represent the many facets of the human soul.

For every spiritual tradition, there is also a dark side: The use of spiritual energy for selfish purposes, and the degeneration of tradition into fundamentalism, marked by rigid thinking and religious prejudice. Perhaps the most common spiritual downfall is over-confidence. This really gets us into trouble. A little humility can save us from a lot of suffering.

I think that the future will see a transformation of religious and spiritual traditions. This transformation will come about by the spiritual flowering within people. It will be people transforming tradition, instead of tradition transforming people. People will respond less to religious dogma, and more to the spiritual light, love and wisdom radiating directly from spiritual teachers. Governments will be transformed to reflect this flowering of the human spirit. That is a future worth building.

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Marie-Claire Wilson, author of The Spiritual Tarot: The Keys to The Divine Temple, bilingual writer and workshop presenter, offers private readings at The Inner Space. Call 404-252-4540